20. A conversation with J. Raymond

What if I told you that a seemingly hopeless journey of addiction could transform into an inspiring story of recovery, redemption, and newfound hope? In this powerful episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Jack Raymond, one of my favorite writers, as he opens up about his raw and unfiltered experiences with addiction, the passing of his father, and the importance of finding a higher power in his path to recovery.

Our conversation explores Jack's early encounters with addiction and the pivotal moments that led him to realize the need for change. We dive into the transformative power of attitude and how a shift in perspective can ultimately save your life. Jack shares his journey of self-discovery, the impact of his father's passing, and his latest book, The Kindred Project, which features stories of survival, addiction, and redemption, including a poem about my own journey.

Don't miss this incredible and inspiring conversation with Jay Raymond, whose words have touched the lives of millions. Together, we discuss the strength, resilience, and hope that can be found in even the darkest moments of our lives. Join us as we celebrate the power of believing in something bigger than ourselves, and how it's never too late to find your passion and purpose.

Follow J Raymond on Instagram: @j.raymond
Jack's website: jraymond.bigcartel.com

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Transcript

Leah: 0:00

Welcome to the Leah Ideology podcast. I'm your host, Leah Wagner. I'm so glad you're here. Hi friend, Oh my gosh, hi friend. Sorry, I'm just getting just getting nuzzled down here. I feel like I start every episode also with a sigh. Do I start every episode with a sigh? I feel like I do. I don't want that to be misinterpreted as like oh my God, I have to be here to do this podcast again, because it's it's the actual opposite of that. It's like oh my God, I'm so thankful to be here and sit here and talk to my friends about what's going on in my life. So it's a sigh of like relief, like a sigh of comfort, like a sigh of like oh my God, I made it here, and you know you did too, And I'm just really glad that we can be here together. So this is an awesome episode. You guys, This is a crazy awesome episode.

Leah: 1:12

I don't even want to spend a huge amount of time on on the intro, because the interview itself, the conversation itself is is so great. You guys, I get to, I got to talk to one of my favorite writers And I think I think that's one of the coolest things about social media is when you actually get to be social with people that you admire and respect and want to be just like right, And you get to follow their careers and you get to follow and see what they do and and how they're doing it and you get to learn from them, And this is one of those people for me. I've been following this guy forever. His words and the way that he puts them together and the way that he speaks about the human experience in a very raw and unfiltered way has helped me through some really crazy dark times, And the fact that I got to sit down and talk to him was absolutely mind blowing. The fact that I have a featured poem written about me, my story, in his latest book called The Kindred Project I there's if I can't. That's what I have to say about that. I've tried to write down exactly how I feel about it and put words into it and try to try to tell you how special it is. But I just want to share the interview with you And I want you to hear who Jay Raymond is. I want you to hear who this man has become through what he has been through. I want you to hear the passion with which he speaks. I want you to listen to how crucial it is to hold on to some sort of humanity when things get really tough.

Leah: 3:10

This dude is who you are going to be listening to today. His name is Jay Raymond. He is the best selling author of six published works Spades, Let Her Run, Concrete Music, Yellow, Number Five, Lush and The Kindred Project. Since sharing his work via social media in 2015, Jay Raymond has enthralled and captivated his readers with his cutting authenticity and wholehearted expression of the raw human experience, delving into the complexities of love, heartbreak, death, grief, addiction, wonderlust and all of our commonalities. It's no wonder why millions of people around the world continue to connect with his guttural prose and poetry. That is exactly who you are going to be listening to. I cannot believe I get to sit down with him.

Leah: 4:03

This interview took place about six months ago, so it's a little bit older. The project that we are talking about is now released. It's called The Kindred Project. You can find it on Amazon. You guys, I am so proud to share this conversation with you. Please be sure you're listening carefully and you're listening deeply and you're listening with an open heart and an open mind, because we're talking about some really tough stuff in this episode We're talking about some really powerful stuff stories of survival, stories of addiction, stories of making it to the other side of what can be really dark tunnels sometimes. You guys, this is my conversation with Jay Raymond. I will talk to you after the conversation ends, So, okay, so the biggest thing that I want to focus on with you if I were to ask you right now how you describe your life right now versus before your thing, before the thing that happened to you, how would you do that? How do you describe your life today versus what your life was like before you had to deal with your thing?

Jack: 5:23

Today my life is hopeful. I know it maybe seems like such a base level human emotion, but it's only that way when you don't have it Well, it only seems like the most important thing when you're hopeless and when you have a little bit of hope. It's so cliche to say attitude is everything, but really when you think about it it can save your life a change in your attitude, and it did for me. So I grew up around addicts, very high functioning addicts, and to the point where the outside world probably thought we were upper, lower class, maybe almost middle class, i guess depends on the year. But my parents loved the hell out of each other to such an extent that I think my brother and I were maybe neglected at times while they enjoyed life in each other and that was beautiful In a lot of ways. I can look at it now as an adult and find it somewhat endearing, but as a child it's hard.

Jack: 6:51

I guess I'll talk about how I got to a point of finally having hope again from being hopeless for a while. I had my first alcoholic beverage at six years old and yeah, and it's somewhat of a funny story, but there was a group of college kids who lived in our neighborhood. We lived in an apartment complex in South Florida and I was playing outside in the neighborhood whatever. And I saw these college kids outside on their porch stoop, whatever and we're having a good time listening to music and drinking. And I saw this bottle of Jack Daniels and six-year-old me thought, oh my god, that bottle has my name on it, literally right. And when you're six years old, you think anything would ever.

Leah: 7:51

That's cool.

Jack: 7:51

At least your name on something, yes, mine right, it has my name on it, it's mine. So these college kids which is just fucking crazy to think about thought in their smooth brains let's give this six-year-old a shot. And I was like hell yeah, and it is so true what they say about that first drink though for most people I think it happens closer to 16 than six. I had that first shot and I felt great, like and like I'm one of the guys. Now I'm six, they're cool. I'm like I'm with these cooled guys. And that did not last very long. My body was serious, in full upheaval and revolt. I went home probably green like lufferigno Hulk color green like old school, not like the like the bright green, but like the sad 80s green sad 80s green like just not a good shade and man, it was an exorcism to end all exorcisms.

Jack: 9:04

My mom was like, are you okay? And I just like, on cue, i like Jackson Pollock, painting whole living room. And I learned early on I couldn't say anything. I couldn't tell her like, oh my gosh, if I had snitched, i wasn't one of the cool guys anymore. So, unknowingly, from an early age I learned to hide alcohol and I spent the next good amount of my time not drinking, avoiding it, looking down on people and my parents, especially for drinking. And then my dad died.

Leah: 9:39

I he was young.

Jack: 9:42

I was 24, 25, and I had spent so much time judging him and anyone who was addicted to anything that I really thought I had distanced myself and created a gulf between the right quote, unquote way to live and these losers who couldn't control their addictions. Right Me, with all my 24, 25 year old wisdom, thought I know life. Why can't you figure it out? Well, that was upended very quickly after he died, because I realized, holy shit, this guy was really happy. And here I am, a miserable piece of shit and did he die because of addiction or what?

Leah: 10:27

What He?

Jack: 10:28

smoked, he smoked a lot, he drank a lot, he just he lived he like he had a very blue collar, hard working one of the guys, like it's just even when we would play golf. I remember him just constantly having a cigarette in his mouth and it would be like the smoke blinding his one eye while he's trying to play golf and I'm like why? Why do you do this? What are you?

Leah: 10:52

doing And he's like what do you mean?

Jack: 10:54

I'm like okay, what do you mean? What's the problem? I'm like you can't see, dude, that's the problem. You miss the ball. Yeah, i was like what was happening? Oh, i forget it.

Jack: 11:09

So it really rocked me when he died and I've always said that the most honest thing I ever wrote that set this whole career of being a writer in motion was his obituary. It was like I was honest for the first time and it was like I was telling him everything I wish I had told him when he was alive and was just too afraid, too egotistical, not humbled or vulnerable enough to tell my father I loved him, that I was lucky to have him, that I was. If I could become half of the kind of man that he was, i would be immeasurably better for it. I had tried to become so opposite of him that I became a person that had no redeeming qualities, almost like I could yes, I could say I worked hard, and I remember earlier I mentioned how important attitude is, and I guess the reason why I say that is you can have all these other things that are positive qualities, right, you can be an incredibly hard worker, but when you have a shitty attitude, who cares? You can be I don't know a beautiful singer and have a beautiful voice and have a shitty attitude. Well, who cares You can be an honest person with a shitty attitude, and who cares man? So it's like a good parent with the shitty. It's almost like without the attitude. Part of it. It almost makes the other positive traits about you null and void.

Jack: 12:58

And so I quit the job that I didn't care about and I just dove into writing. I dove into art, trying to process these feelings that I had suppressed for so long. And along with diving into those emotions came me diving headfirst into drugs and alcohol, and that created a 10-year span of just heartache, a lot of devastation, hurting people, but also art and living and trying to get my head around this human condition, and some of the I've always said some of the worst things that have ever happened to me were the best things that have ever happened to me, and I still feel that way, and that's so. Through this 10 years of battling alcohol and drugs and writing and exploring myself and breaking my own heart over and over again and hurting those who care about me over and over again, i bottomed out, found myself in a position where I had no choice but to enter treatment, to enter into a plan of recovery. And I remember going to my first AA meeting. I had nothing left. My wife and I were done. She threw me out. I had just.

Jack: 14:27

You know, after 10 years of what people would see or think was success. You know, you have a couple bestselling books, you have a big following on social media. I had nothing. Still, i had nothing to show for it, because my addictions had taken all of it, all of it, everything. And they say that giving up an addiction is it's like giving up alcohol or drugs. You're, you're, when you're addicted, you're trading that, that substance for everything, whereas when you find recovery, you're, you're giving up that one thing for everything. Right, so it was. It was weird to to find myself now after ten years of work and suddenly, with nothing, i walk in the alcohol real, i mean in your mid-20s.

Leah: 15:32

That's really when it got its hold on you. That's really when things started to go south.

Jack: 15:36

I lasted through your 30s yeah, yeah, so yeah, and, and I can look back at it now I'm still new in recovery it just doesn't feel like. It feels like I'm finally beginning to life. I had been numbed out and detached for so long that I didn't I didn't even really know 10, but 10 years flew by like nothing because I wasn't even present for most of it. So now it's like I can wake up every day and feel the day I can. I don't have to fill it, i can feel it and that's. That's a cool, a cool place to be in.

Jack: 16:14

But I walked in that meeting broken, destitute, all these terrible things, and I walked out a changed person. But I remember getting coming home from that meeting and and just unraveling, just it was like the weight of the world was finally off me. I said I don't want to live like this anymore and I cried like I hadn't cried since my father passed away. I it was like for the first time in a decade I didn't want to kill myself and and I look back at it now and and I am, i was so.

Jack: 16:59

I'm so heartbroken, almost I feel such pity empathy too, but pity for my, my others, my previous self, because of how close I was to have taken, taking my own life, and I can look back at that and realize, wow, what a void, what an absence this world would have had or felt if I had just removed myself from it. Right, and that is an odd, and I I'm so, just, it makes me so sad sometimes to think how long I lived in that space of. I was about to just rid the world of anything good that I could have contributed to it, because of an impulse, because of short sightedness, because of a depression that I couldn't get a handle on, anxiety, just because of all these things that I wasn't equipped to do or but but needed to happen for me to get to this point.

Leah: 17:57

So how the what was the? what was the turning point? like, what happened that you just said ten years of of this, this destructive behavior, that, what was it? that was like, yes, i'm gonna go, today's the day, i'm gonna go get help, i'm gonna go, i'm gonna go give it a try anyway, yeah yeah.

Jack: 18:16

So it's a many addicts and and alcoholics, and they can, they, they, they don't know when their last drink is gonna be. If they did, they ever all alcoholics and acts if, if they knew when their last drink was actually going to be, they would probably do it a lot different. But we don't have that kind of force. I I'll tell you mine. It was about 2.33 am in the morning. My wife is asleep. We had argued for years now about my addiction and we had separated, or said, threatened to separate, several times. I had always weaseled my way back in and I had told her she had told me earlier in the year that if I didn't quit drinking that we were done, done, done for real. And so I said, yeah, of course, no problem, i'll stop drinking. You're right, it's not serving us anymore. Blah, blah, blah. Didn't believe a fucking word of that, continued to drink behind her back like a drunken ninja.

Jack: 19:28

And I was very, very clever and cunning with my addictions. Like I had it stashed around the house, i knew exactly which alcohol to drink at certain times of the day, to where she wouldn't smell it by the time I did see her how long it took to come off my breath. I was brushing my teeth, rent you know tongue, mouth rinsing, flossing several times a day, probably stripping enamel off of my teeth just to hide my addiction. I knew which alcohol or which mints paired best with certain alcohols that would mask it the right way. And I mean just really creative with hiding this addiction. And she probably knew.

Jack: 20:09

But was you know that we were so self-absorbed as addicts that we don't really take much consideration of other people and when we're in the throws of the addiction at least we don't care. And she knew, probably didn't want to say anything because she knew what it meant by knowing it meant that we were done and that was hard for her as well. But one, one night, two, three am in the morning, i'm working on someone's custom poem, something that I love to do, but the worst my addiction got, the less I was able to give myself to writing for other people who commissioned a piece from me. Anyway, it's 2, 3 am in the morning. I'm writing this gentleman's custom poem and I'm looking around for some alcohol and some coke cocaine that even though I did like whiskey and coke, it was also the cocaine that was an issue and I I remember being all out of drugs and being really, really fucking annoyed by that.

Jack: 21:07

I was like, yeah, all the drugs, that's lame, the worst feeling yep so annoying.

Jack: 21:13

It's like. Who did all my job? I did, damn it, damn did all my stupid me. So it's too late. I can't really get anyone over at my house at that time, trust me.

Jack: 21:25

That was the first thought, and then I remembered from the recesses of my addict brain that there was this we had. We had some fruit flies in our house in New Orleans. Everything smells like vomit and urine. So leaving the windows open means flies are welcomed in. If you have an apple on the on the counter, half of New Orleans bugs will now live inside of your house.

Jack: 21:51

So we read somewhere that if you pour a cup of wine red wine on this in a cup and put on the windowsill, the fruit flies will fly in it, drown, die. We had done that about three weeks ago and forgot about it. I don't know how I remembered it, but I remembered that we had put this cup of red wine on the windowsill and it sat there for three weeks and I was just so in the middle of just needing more, consuming more, more, more, more by any means that I remember angrily tiptoeing that's very hard to do, by the way angrily, like angrily tiptoeing up the, up the stairs just to not wake her, but still like pissed off that I have to hide my addiction from her like this is bullshit.

Jack: 22:39

Other people can drink and I have to hide it and I remember grabbing that cup of red wine filled with flies and bugs and dust and garbage that had been sitting there for three weeks I probably didn't have hardly any alcohol right and just drinking that and I didn't really care in the moment, i didn't even think much of it. I had made my mind up that I was gonna just do that and did it. But I remember the next morning waking up and that was the bro, the breaking point that was realizing how little I cared about myself, how little I valued my own life, having no dignity, no pride. Right, they say, you know, too much pride will kill a man, but so will too little. And, and that was true for me. And and I woke up, really just embarrassed for myself, ashamed of myself, i thought of my father, someone who, alongside my mom, never got a hold of his addiction, and now I'm worse than him. And that was what led me to that meeting and I went in there begrudgingly. I went in there because I knew my relationship was over. I knew my. When my wife found out the next morning, i knew that we were done.

Jack: 23:58

I knew that I had nowhere to live and that the least I could do is go to a meeting, and I won't turn this into any kind of religious spiel. I don't really care what you believe in I. I kind of look at it like this, like religion speaks in terms of God and spirituality. Science refers to it as energy and in the streets we call it a vibe, right, but it's all, it's all a feeling, it's all an energy. Somehow, right there's. You're here for a reason and I didn't.

Jack: 24:36

I had lost sight of my, my reason, and they say that in a lot of instances with addicts, that you're a higher power, your source, your creator, an energy of vibe, whatever brings you to a a, to a collective, you know, a group of individuals who suffer from the same affliction. That source brings you into that meeting, so that that meeting can bring you closer to your creator. And that's how it was for me. I had lost total, total sight of my higher power, of the universe. I thought I was the master of the universe, i was playing God, i thought I hung the moon and aligned the stars. And when I finally realized that, when left up to my control, if, if, if, i were to sit down with God through my creator, who, in my mind, isn't some long white-haired wizard with lightning bolt shooting out of its eyes and ass.

Jack: 25:41

Birkenstocks, okay, he doesn't look like Gandalf we can only hope, though, really, let's be honest, yeah you know, and I realized that I had rejected religion for so long because of my narrow, limited beliefs of it. Like I, i thought it was just this dude, right, he turned water into wine and like how stupid and limited and I can. And it was just. You know, i my brain was too, you know couldn't comprehend someone creating the cosmos, so I just rejected it all together. But I have a different definition.

Jack: 26:21

It's a God of my understanding and I and I started to when I, when I finally got through like this withdrawals and detox, and I sat down and quieted myself and and I imagined, wow, if I were to have a conversation with God and I were to sit down with him or her, it. And they said like almost like a, like a highlight reel of my life. And they were like, okay, look, we've tried it your way and let's go through some of the highlights of of what you've done. When left up and up to you know, in control, like like he's my boss, i'm a lower level manager in a department, your annual review time in a department of one, my only responsibility is me.

Jack: 27:06

It's not even like he put me in charge of a whole bunch of shit. He was just like let's just start here. You're just getting started, so you're in charge of you. Go ahead, and we'll meet back later and just see how things are going. Well, here I am sitting across the table and he's like explain this. And I'm like what is?

Leah: 27:27

what is this?

Jack: 27:33

yes. So God got us in there and he's like so you thought it a good idea to poop on someone's car. So it's 4 am and you thought that it was a good time to let your mother know that you thought she was a bitch like, yeah, no, it doesn't sound like me at all, so it was like it was just. It was a revelation for me to realize, one that I didn't have to live like that anymore, that the way I had been doing it my way, People say things I've heard people say before, like I don't know if AA, or I don't know if finding a higher power or spiritual whatever, if you believe in the stars or Buddha or whatever it is, if you can, just if you can, stay open and find a willingness to believe in something bigger than yourself, well, man, it just makes life a lot easier, because now you're not left up to your own devices. And if you can accept the fact that you don't know everything, well then someone else might know more, There might be a better way out there, and I had to be open to that And that it took me bottoming out to get to that point Once I entered into a plan of recovery and was open to living a different, healthier way and being a contributing member of society and stopped leaching and taking from it.

Jack: 29:25

It's been nothing short of a miracle. What's happened in my life? Every single facet of my life is better, It's beautiful, it's gentler, it's softer. I don't even the problems that I have now it's hard for me to even classify them as problems because I handle them with a maturity, with a grace, with a better attitude and mindset, with a strength that I didn't have before, a clarity that didn't exist when I was diving deep in drugs and alcohol, an energy everything is seen through a prism now that makes life worth living, And that's, I think, what makes it sad for me to think.

Jack: 30:04

Imagine how close I was to just ending my life, because that's where I was At the bottom before I went, when I, when I Googled that AA meeting to find a location to go into that day. You know when you, when you put the cursor in the in the search engine and it pulls up your recent searches. My most recent search was literally me researching how much alcohol do I need to drink to kill myself And then looking up what kind of alcohol is the easiest to keep down, because I was equally as terrified of what would happen if I tried to drink myself to death and I threw it up and cunt it Like that would have been devastating to me. I was more afraid to to life at that point than dying. And then, second to that would be like what if I couldn't kill myself properly, Like I didn't want to blow my brains out because, man, that would be so hard for my wife to have to clean up, Like? and then even then weirdly.

Jack: 31:04

Weirdly, when you're in, when you're a depressed, anxious person, when you start think, you start to think about how even your death is a burden to people Like I'm a burden alive, i'm a burden dead, and like you're in this perpetual self-inflicted purgatory that only stepping outside of yourself can cure And that I had, like I was destroying my own life. That was obvious. No one would look at my life and be like man, that guy is killing it And he's doing a bang up job at life. He's helping no one. His attitude sucks. He's breaking everyone's heart. Everyone wants to help him and he just keeps retreating into the hell of himself. He's awesome. No, no, everyone knew I wasn't hiding it. The only one that wouldn't accept it was me. And once I did, it was like I ripped the fucking door off, the hinges of life and light came in and people were there to help me. People had answers and hope and they were like come on, i swear it felt like a higher power, the universe, the stars, whatever. It was like when I was there, crying, saying I don't want to live like this anymore, and begging, please, meaning it sincerely, please, dude, i don't want to live like this. It was like, finally someone said are you ready? Are you ready? And I said yeah. And there is maybe someone with more internal you know, testinal fortitude, more strength in a stiffer spine, would have looked at the direction that their life was heading and realized well shit, this is getting dark, we should fix this before it got so bad. But for me, it could not have happened any other way. And now and we talked about this before I understand why I'm here. I understand that the only sin now, the only crime now, would be if I did not turn this into art, if I didn't take all these life experiences and breathe life into them.

Jack: 33:17

I read once that I want you to imagine. You know you're on your deathbed. Right, it's kind of morbid to think about, but you're at the end of your life And around your deathbed are all your hopes, your dreams, your ambitions, the promises you made to yourself, to those you love. Everything that was meant for you is standing around your deathbed and they're mad. They're disappointed because they came to you to give them life. No one else could do it. They were yours, they were gifted to you, they were instilled inside of you and they're there and they never saw the light of day because you were afraid, because, in my case, i was selfish, self absorbed and a drug and alcohol abuser. They came to me and I never, ever, gave them a chance to see the light of day. I never gave them wings, and now, because of me, i take them to the grave. They come with me to the grave and no one knows them. No one ever gets to see the potential of these things that were mine all along, some of which were given. Some of them I've earned, and now they come with me to the grave.

Jack: 34:42

And that's where I was. I was being buried alive, with all my hopes and dreams, and once I changed my attitude, i was still buried. I had dug myself into a massive ditch. But now all those lessons, all this heartache, all the pains, all these terrible decisions turned into seeds, and from there those seeds grew, and now all I have to do, my only responsibility, is to take these seeds and keep them alive. I have to water them, i have to nurse them every day and give them to others. That's it. That's all I have to do.

Jack: 35:21

The only sin is, if I have all these lessons, that I've learned the hardest ways possible, to the point that it almost killed me, and then I never turn it into art, i never give them to anyone else. It never serves a purpose that others may follow, that others may look at and see, holy shit, if that guy did it, if he got through that and look at him thriving now look at him, you know, kicking life's ass instead of life kicking his ass, that's a beautiful thing. If he could do it, i can do it. And now we turn despair on its head and it becomes something that inspires others. Man, and that's my calling, that's all I care about now is understanding that if I was that close to killing myself and knowing how many people do every single day that, if I got that close and didn't and am happier and more hopeful than I've ever been in my life, why and how can I share that?

Leah: 36:21

Now that you have this like like newly discovered appreciation for life, which I think that for those of us who are lucky to get to the point of complete emptiness and hopelessness and you can kind of start to rebuild, which happens brick by brick, like the slowest process sometimes, do you regret all of it? I mean like, do you, what are the? do you regret all of it? Or do you? are you, i don't know, thankfuls the word, but do you at least have some appreciation for what it's done? Like how do you? how would you answer that? Do you regret your addiction? I?

Jack: 37:02

don't. And I think here's here's for anyone out there who is addicted to whatever. If you're, if you've lost the ability to manage your life in a healthier way, like if you're addicted to being lazy, if you're addicted to gambling maybe it's not just heroin, y'all, like you know, maybe there's something else out there that's holding you back. I am no life coach. I am not going to preach to you, but for me, a lot of my addiction Were disguised as a good time. Look, i had a lot of fun Partying. I really did. I'd be lying through my teeth if I sat here and I told you oh man, it was just, i was just in an alleyway the whole time.

Leah: 37:56

Yeah, yeah, that's real boring.

Jack: 37:59

I had. Some of my coolest memories revolve around alcohol and addiction. But I had to understand, i really had to accept the fact that I'm not like other people. Other people have a good night, right. They go out, party, whatever. They wake up the next day and they're like oh, should I think I had too much to drink, right, they feel it. I could never have enough. I never could have enough, whereas other people admitted they had a little too much.

Jack: 38:29

I had to give my son up for adoption. I was homeless, lived in my car for two weeks. Every single person in my life I wreaked havoc upon, i laid waste to people who cared about me, and I can look back and see several jumping off points in life that I could have stopped. I could have, at some points, looked at when it got bad, like I'm living in my car and I could have said, hmm, maybe I should reevaluate. But I didn't. I kept going. I gave my son up for adoption. Hmm, maybe now's a good time to reevaluate. Nope, not bad enough. It was like that old story about like a guy's walking past someone's house and there's a dog sitting there And it's howling, screaming, just howling away, and the guy walking by says to the owner on the porch next to the dog says hey, your dog is really not doing so well over there. And the owner says yeah, he's sitting on a nail. And the guy's like what the hell? Well, why doesn't he move? And he goes. Just doesn't hurt bad enough yet.

Leah: 39:44

And that's kind of how my life was man.

Jack: 39:47

It's like dude, i'm reading your writing. You're not happy. Why don't you change? Well, it's not bad enough for me yet. I had to get real, real bad, and that's what I mean. Maybe if I had a little more foresight I would have changed it. But I had my father. It sounds crazy. My father had to pass away. Yeah, here's a crazy story. Here's a crazy story.

Jack: 40:10

So my mother, who's still here? How's your relationship with her? It's great now, but after my father passed away, she tried to drink herself to death. And I mean like, wholeheartedly, like. She was in a organ liver, organ, liver failure, had a pacemaker, like the doctor told her like, if you drink again, you die. Well, the next six years I'm idolizing her while still battling my own addiction, thinking man, you know, my mom didn't go to any recovery program, but she did almost drink herself to the point of dying, and now she can't drink. So in a way, she's sober, turns out.

Jack: 40:50

That wasn't true at all. I love my mom to death, but she had been also hiding her addictions, even though the doctor said you've already almost died. If you continue to drink, you will die. It didn't matter. It didn't matter, it's irrational. Our addictions are irrational. And here I am bottomed out, thinking she's sober. I go into the program and only through me entering the program do I learn she's never been in it and is never, is no longer sober. She's also using again And now because of me in the program, me entering into recovery.

Jack: 41:30

It gave her hope with my example. not the doctor telling her not to, not her husband passing away, not a screaming at her to go get help None of that. Through my example, the way I started to live my life, her seeing the change in me, not promoting recovery, but being someone others are attracted to through recovery. Now she enters into AA. She's been sober for I think. I think she just got her 30 day chip. She's upset. She's more into recovery. She's more gung-ho about it than even I was And I'm fucking on fire about it. But get the hell out of my mom's way, bro, because she is just getting going. She's been addicted for 50 fucking years and now, bro, watch her smoke because she's going.

Jack: 42:22

Like I know I can inspire change because of my platform, but my mom, her story is the one I'm ultimately most excited to tell, because my father never had the opportunity to see his wife sober, clean, living a significant, meaningful, impactful life. He didn't have to see me wrestle my own demons And he's not here, but his story will be heard, and now his wife and his youngest son, the man I'm named after I look just like to do. His wife and myself now now get to carry this message on to others who, you know, are battling with their own addictions, that there is a different way, there's a better way, and that, to me, is a story that I could not, even as a writer, have come up with. That's how I know, like I know, like I know We are here for a reason And I had to go through all of that to find my reason.

Jack: 43:31

I feel for people who have yet to find their calling, but what I am not a fan of are people who stop trying. I'm not a fan of people who are like yeah, i don't know What do you like. So, like so many people and this isn't me knocking you, i guess I feel for you If you don't know what that thing is that makes your fucking heart sing, that you wake up every day and you cannot wait to do it. I'm not talking about just your kids, even Like a lot of people say well, i'm a mother, i'm a father. I'm like that's cool, that's not you, that's what's worse. What was giving to you? What makes your heart sing? Not an obligation, not a task, not a responsibility, what is it?

Jack: 44:19

Because I have seen people who had nothing, no direction, no compass, nothing at all. They were addicts, they were just leeches on society who have since made such positive, beautiful impacts on the world. I'm talking heroin users who now own gyms and teach people how to live healthier lifestyles. How did this person now is the epitome of health? How, okay? Well, this woman who was sexually abused or assaulted now runs this recovery center for battered women. How, how does that happen? This person? I shouldn't be here. That's how I really feel. If I am here though that wasn't of my making There are people every day, especially here in New Orleans, that are drinking themselves to death, that are getting one bag of fentanyl, one hit boom done by, from the same people I used to get my drugs from. Why am I here, man? Why am I here? And thank God, i got out when I did So.

Jack: 45:29

I'm not a fan of people who haven't found their calling yet, that aren't even trying. Well, i tried doing rock climbing. I didn't love it. So I guess I'll just go back to working 50 hours a week and go into bed. I'll shower, take my morning dump, i'll listen to Joe Rogan, drive to work, come home, jerk off, go to bed, do it again And do it again. Yeah, and that's it, bro. That's all you'll ever do, because you didn't like rock climbing that one time. Like dude, like come on, keep going. You don't know.

Jack: 46:09

I promise you, six-year-old me, after that first shot of Jack Daniels wasn't thinking one day I'm going to write six books of poetry and three of them are going to be best sellers and people on Instagram are going to. I had no fucking idea, but I just like I was lucky To me. I knew it all along, even though I was running from it. I knew writing was my passion. I loved it since I was a kid. I knew that.

Jack: 46:35

But maybe others haven't found it yet. Maybe you've gotten so far away from what you know you love that you forgot and you got to keep trying. You know, maybe it's crocheting. It sounds crazy, right? Why the hell would I like to crochet? But my point is, you don't know, maybe it's fucking rollerblading. You don't know, maybe it's bowling. I mean, i don't care, whatever it is. there is something that is meant for you that you can use creatively to live a better, more fulfilled life. Like I'm telling you, i know a guy who was super into what's that, what's that called? Were you like tie the rope between, like two trees and you like bounce on it? You know what I'm talking about.

Leah: 47:16

Oh, yes, Yes, yes, i don't know what it's called, but I can see it in my head Black lining. Yes.

Jack: 47:20

Yes, black lining dude. And this guy when I tell you, this guy was the biggest degenerate piece of shit friend I had And he, you know what he does Like, he loves the slack line And I'm like what the hell? And he's like bro, it just requires a lot of, a lot of like, focus, concentration, using muscles that your body has never used. He's unbelievably passionate about it And every single week he helps, he teaches kids how to do it and they're into it.

Jack: 47:47

I know people who are into parkour, people who are into music, that give music lessons. These are drug addict losers, bottom feeding scum of the earth lower than squid shit that society has discarded that are now inflicting positive change through music For fitness, health, nutrition. Because they did not kill themselves, because they started to believe in something bigger than themselves, they turned to a higher power, their attitude changed and then the world around them changed And it's a it's that's, i do feel, for people like I said, who haven't found it, but it isn't an excuse to not try anymore, because my mom is a great example. I have no idea what kind of footprint she was going to leave on this world. She might not yet either, but I know it's a hell of a lot better than the one she was leaving and that tomorrow she could pick up something. And with the attitude and mindset that she has now, with with a full and open head and heart, she can do anything. And we all have that possibility.

Jack: 48:54

My mom is 67, 68 years old. She's been drinking for the vast majority of her life And now, within 45 days, her entire world is different. So what is our excuse And why? why? why could it? I love?

Leah: 49:08

that. What I love about what you said, specifically about your mom, is that and it's, it's, it's the same for everybody, no matter if you're struggling with addiction or if you like to eat all the time or if you want to gamble or any any kind of thing like that. You can preach to these people as much as you want, and the thing is is that they fucking know, like I know, i know smoking's bad for me.

Jack: 49:29

You know what I mean.

Leah: 49:30

Like you hear it from, like the moment you're out of the womb. But what, what? what I think is beautiful about that is that all it took and I say that there's a lot more to it but all it took was you stepping into your alignment and then you radiate something, not just you, but anybody who's able to step into that kind of power. You radiate something that attracts the other people. So just you living was the example. Right, that was what. That's what. Not the words and not the lectures, and not the threats, and not the it it's, it's, it's having the connection with someone else, being able to step into the. I can do this. I can do this as well as possible.

Jack: 50:14

The whole the the world. Whether we want to believe it or not, the world is watching They. They see what you're doing. They might not think highly of you, you might feel like the world is against you, but if those two things are true, that at least means that they're watching, they're aware. So if that's the case, do better, then be better. Right, you don't. It doesn't have to be this way.

Jack: 50:37

And I'm and this is coming from a guy who, who gave less than no fucks man, i did not care about you, i did not care about me. If someone said you never know something good might happen, i'd say why the fuck would anything good ever happen? Like, i'm talking cynicism full tilt. But that was because I was operating under my own devices, i was following my own plan. People say, oh yeah, i don't know if AA or religion or whatever is for me. Well, i could tell you, my way wasn't for me either. So I had no choice but to find a different way. And you know you can be an example, and I think you know we talked about this yesterday and maybe you know we could talk a little bit about the project too.

Jack: 51:22

But we, you, you, you, you survived two horrific experiences that altered the course of your life forever And you could have quit, you could have given up, you could have been. Like it's unfair. This is so devastating to who I am as a human being that I don't want to continue going on as a human being anymore. And people opt out. They pull that fail safe switch every day And it is so sad to me that they don't hang on And I understand as a depressed person. It doesn't feel like it's going to get better. Sometimes You feel like this is it, this is how it is. So why suffer? Why not just take an easier way out? I don't even like that saying easy way out, because it's the ultimate, impossible, hard thing to do. Right, you know you're given one life and then you take it. So it's not the easy way out, but our responsibility is, like I said earlier, to take the only crime would be same with you, just like my addictions, just like my mother is, just like anybody out there battling. The only crime, above the crimes itself, would be to take these experiences to our grave, to not turn them into art, to not turn them into change that others may benefit from. You went through lawsuits, legal battles and therapy and all these things that we were saying. Right, they all start to pile up in a negative way against your life. The only way that that turns is by you flipping it on its head.

Jack: 53:26

You do a podcast. You start talking to other victims of sexual assault and abuse. You do your podcast. You do the project that you're working on. You share your story. That story gets shared And now through that, it's like now this thing grows bigger than the thing that caused it And that has to happen.

Jack: 53:50

I mean you can just let shit happen to you, let life happen to you, and just keep it in your pocket and suffer and carry that weight. It's like you're on dry land with an anchor right The anchor and you're trying to move forward and it's just destroying the grounds, holding you back, fucking shit up behind you. Everywhere you go. You're just dragging, pulling, slogging this anchor behind you. Why, man? Just throw the anchor back into the person's boat. You gave it to you, right, let them have it.

Jack: 54:23

That's where I'm at, man, so like I can't blame my parents anymore for my addiction. They didn't force me to join. They didn't force me to do a bunch of drugs. They didn't make me do all that I had to take full accountability, full responsibility. The anchor was mine and all I had to do was fucking get rid of it Now. It's not easy to do all the time, but once you do well, now you're fucking moving, now you're flying, and you could take these things that are devastating and turn them into blessings. It's so hard to think that in the moment, but that is the promise of life You can turn these hardships into messages of hope if you want to. You don't have to. You could just carry it around with you like an anchor. But I couldn't live like that. That was death to me.

Leah: 55:09

I do want to talk about the product debt, because it's amazing. The last question I have for you is how would you today, how would you, support someone who is addicted? What would you do I guess that's two parts Somebody who is maybe like you were, who was not willing to admit that they have a problem? I don't even know if there's much you can do for someone like that. What do you do for somebody who, if I were to come to you and say, hey, jack, today's the day, dude, i can't fucking do it. Today's it. I don't even know what the next step is. What do you do for those two people, you yourself.

Jack: 55:49

I have had in my time of sobriety. I've had more people message me and reach out to me on a daily basis about just humbly, hat in their hands, say I don't know what to do. Man, it's so important that people understand this I don't care if you drink, i don't care if you do drugs. I'm not your savior, i am not your guru. I'm not here to lift you up out of the hell you made You are. You have to do that Period. You can't do it alone, but you have to start. You have to be willing to want a better, different life. If you don't, nothing I can say, nothing I can do. It doesn't matter. If you don't, if you're cool with it. I had to get to a point where I'd ask myself if alcohol and drugs are having a negative impact on my life, why can't I stop? That's it. Why can't I stop? I know it's having a negative impact. Why can't I stop? This is the same brain.

Jack: 56:59

What was the answer? I don't know. I don't have the answer. The answer was I don't have it, so I had to go find the answer. The answer for me was AA. If you had sent me to a no disrespect to therapists, no disrespect to an organized religion or church, if you had told me to do that and I had done it, it would have been devastating for me. If you had just sent me to a therapist, i might have killed myself, because what the fuck does this therapist understand? When was the last time she did a big ass line of coke off a dirty toilet seat?

Leah: 57:35

Yes.

Jack: 57:36

Right, i was around people who had suffered the same affliction, or worse, as my own. So I needed a group, i needed a community, and AA was that for me. So if you are willing to change, if you are willing, you're not going to be perfect at it, you're not. You know, people relapse all the time. I haven't just because I again nothing against people who do relapse For me. I didn't see the, didn't just see the light. I am standing in the shit, like. I'm not talking like God's light or some heavenly aura. I'm not talking about that shit. I'm talking about hope, man. I'm talking about like an energy that I feel now I wake up, i meditate, i do yoga, i do all this shit to bulletproof myself and keep myself standing in a light of goodness where I can go and be helpful to someone else, so I can stay sober, so I can stay clean, so that when my mom sees me she says, finally, for the first fucking time in 50 years, i want to live like that, i want what he has. So if you want change, i mean you just be willing, it'll find you. That sounds crazy, but you know, it's kind of like when you want drugs and alcohol, we'd find it, we would say, oh, it finds us. Now I just can't get away from it. No, man, you're attracting that, that's your energy. You're putting it out there, so you're always going to be standing in that light or darkness, really.

Jack: 59:08

So once I grew passionate about helping other people, about creating art, better art, more honest art, living a healthy life, being an example, well then it was like the world moved in my fucking favor. Money I shudder to think how much money I've spent on drugs and alcohol. That's a lot. But more than that were the opportunities that I've missed, the relationships that I've blown out because of my addictions. Those are priceless If I had to put money on it. I'm talking, who knows, because an opportunity begets other opportunities and I shucked, shunned all of them because of an addiction. Now, money through the roof, peace through the roof, happiness through the roof, my relationship with my wife beautiful, solid, strong. My mother beautiful, solid, strong And all of these things keep moving in my favor. Why. Some call it God, some call it a miracle, some call it the universe, the stars. I don't know, man. I don't know If I keep living that way, i live an abundant life.

Leah: 1:00:20

I was going to ask what does reconciliation look like for the wife and the kid And I know the mom, but what does it look like now?

Jack: 1:00:28

One day at a time. This cliche and bumper sticker-ish is that, as that is, my wife and I separated while I was going through my recovery, and the first 90 days are very, very intense. They really say the first year of recovery is pretty intense. I was so afraid of what's going to happen with my son while I ever be in his life again. How do I go about being in his life, reentering his life? My wife, how can I mend this relationship after I've burned this entire bridge down? How do I fix this and that? My mom? I've never had a sober relationship in my life. The whole time I was looking up to her she was still using, so that just blew that idea out of the water too. I started thinking about all these things, right, are the same things that cause us to drink, to use, to abuse and escape? We pile all this pressure and expectations on ourselves about what could, what, if? how do I blow it? Man, screw that. The only thing I got to do right now is take care of me. I can't help you, i can't help nobody. I can't be a father, i can't be a husband. I can't do any of that, and I wrote the other day about how you're.

Jack: 1:01:56

Everyone's allowed to feel how they want to feel. My wife is allowed to be furiously pissed off at me, disappointed and heartbroken. She is allowed to feel that way. She absolutely is, and it's deserved. I'm also allowed to forgive myself. I'm also allowed to feel, to react to how she feels in a healthier way. It's hard, and for me, when she really wanted to unpack all of the damage I've caused and lay it out in front of me and say look at this, look at what you did, look at how you've made me feel When you did this. This is how I felt When you did that. This is how I felt.

Jack: 1:02:46

My instinct is to run. I don't like that. I don't, i don't, i don't, i don't, i don't care, just move on. Let's just get. No, no, you don't get to do that. That's not life. We're allowed to feel how they feel And we have to let them. We have to make it, make sure that they have a safe space to feel that way, otherwise they'll never get over it, they'll never move on, and it's not up to us how quickly they move on. Right, we grieve in. You know the the, the shelf life of grief is different for each person. So I had to let her do that And at the same time, i had to not take offense to it. I had, i had, i had to. I had to let her feel that way, and then I had to take responsibility for how I felt, hearing it right. I could choose.

Leah: 1:03:31

Simultaneously.

Jack: 1:03:33

Yep.

Jack: 1:03:34

I had to be bitter and angry and combative against how I, the damage I did. I could say, oh man, she's overreacting, why doesn't she go? I'm the one in recovery. I can weaponize my own recovery and use it against her. Why And I've gaslighted this these people in my life for so long?

Jack: 1:03:51

They've given me so many chances. I got to give sobriety a chance now. Right, I've got to give sobriety a chance now. And I I I'm allowed to feel how I want to feel. I'm not going to let anyone else govern how I feel anymore. If other people are want to be disappointed in me for the rest of their life, they're allowed to do that. But I'm not gonna let their disappointment in me dictate how I feel about myself for the rest of my life either. Like it's gotta be both man, like we gotta. That's the attitude. That's the attitude.

Jack: 1:04:33

So like once you have a faith in something bigger than yourself, you have a plan, you enter into recovery. You're following pragmatic steps to live a better life. Every single day, you bulletproof yourself. I have to meditate. I have to think positively. I have to find that light every fucking day, because the second I get stepped outside of light, my addiction is. They're waiting. My negative thoughts are. They're waiting The second I step into a shadow, out of the light. I feel it. It's right there, man. It's like it's just tugging on the back of my shirt Like, hey, dude, fuck all this man, let's get high.

Jack: 1:05:06

Yeah, yes, right, i can't. I can. The next time I get high, i die. That's the deal. So I gotta stay in the light.

Leah: 1:05:19

I have loved your writing for oh God, years. I was one of the social media followers that just like lurked and creeped in the background And I have always used in regards to my story and my sexual assaults and the things that I've lived through. I did cling to your quote that I think is probably one of your most popular ones. That she survived quote And it wasn't because it was like super hopeful. I tend to kind of stay away from writing like that. That's like really flowery, yeah, flowery, yes, that's really it was. It was it was really real. I mean to summarize, it's like, hey, girl, you've been through some fucking shit, right, and you're gonna, you're gonna, tomorrow's gonna come for you if you want it to, and that's basically what it is.

Leah: 1:06:09

And I needed that at the time because it was this. It was this empathetic connection of yes, this is shitty, and sometimes that's all you need is an acknowledgement of that. This is shitty. It, yes, it absolutely fucking is, and that's what your writing does. I think It's that connection of I hear you and I see you, because I've been through struggle. I've been through the absolute worst fucking thing that life could absolutely throw at me And I've been through it. So that's how I can speak to you about it.

Leah: 1:06:39

Like you said, i need to talk to somebody who knows what pain is. I don't need the guy sitting up in, like the the nosebleed seats at the sports game calling the shots on the field I don't care what like. I need the guy who's on the field to tell me what it's really like. So that's what your writing has has done for me, and so being able to connect with you about that and I love writing and everything that you do which brought us to this point of me sharing my story with you, you sharing your story with me for the podcast. So, yes, i want you to talk about what the project is, what the Kindred project is, what you have coming up and what is next for you? What is the future like for for you now?

Jack: 1:07:23

So so remember that, that little story, that bottoming out point of me drinking a fucking cup of flies, right, right, Well, that here's. Here's what's so great about life And why. I know I was a fool forever thinking I I had it figured out That this, that that custom poem that I was writing for someone that night I ended up finishing, and it was for a gentleman who wanted me to write about a woman in his life. He messages me a few days later, i think, when he, when I, when I mailed the poem out and he got it Now keep in mind I've also now entered into AA admitted that I'm an alcoholic and drug addict. My total, i have no like. My wife is throwing me out. My life is in shambles, but I'm very hopeful, i'm very excited about life, even though anyone else would look at it and be like your shit is fucked. I'm like what do you mean, man? It's just fine What It's making, good, i'm just hopeful.

Leah: 1:08:31

I'm just trying to be hopeful.

Jack: 1:08:33

I'm like it finally feels good, what are you talking about? They're like, damn, that guy's not okay. So so, like this guy messages me and says can we speak? I want to talk to you on the phone. And I can tell you in the course of nine, 10 years I've done thousands of custom poems for people And me. I could count on one hand how many times I've actually spoken on the phone with someone And I did not want to.

Jack: 1:09:00

I didn't want to talk to this fucking guy about the thing I already wrote. I didn't want to get his feedback on it. Feedback, yep, i don't care, it's done. And also, i'm over here dealing with some shit. Bro, like I don't want to, like I don't want to hear you talk about, like whatever you think. Well, i don't care And listen.

Jack: 1:09:21

I'm trying to take a new approach on life, right, because the way I've been doing it has not worked. So I'm like all right, let me step outside of myself, let me be less self-absorbed. This guy wants to talk to me. He's a paying customer, fine, and it was such a beautiful experience for me. He told me a story about her in detail, about the piece, how much he loved it, and we just connected And it was almost like he was. It was like I was listening for the first time and he was being heard for the first time right in a long time. And I was so shut off to that because I'm an artist, i don't want to talk to people. the world, ew, like just juvenile, small, like I was playing a little kids game my whole life. You know I was taking my ball and going home, yeah, and that's sad man, that's because we're not. You know you can't inspire change. You can't live a significant life by yourself. I know that they say the opposite of addiction is connection, and I know that my addictions want to isolate me. They want me to retreat back into the hell of myself. They want me removed from people. They want me alone in a dark, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, cold corner of life. That's where it likes me to itself And the only way, well, the easiest way for me to beat that is to be of service to others is to take this story and share it with the world. So getting off the phone with that gentleman, i realized this is it. This is how I create now.

Jack: 1:11:11

I was at a loss for years as to what I was going to write. Am I going to just be this drunken artist for the rest of my life? It was so cliched I had beat this horse to death. And it's so funny, this drunken artist thing, this tortured artist thing. We think it's so creative, yet every single one of us do it Like it's such bullshit, it's hackneyed, like we got to put this to bed.

Jack: 1:11:37

I used to say, oh, you know what, what, what, how am I going to write sober, as like it was serving me? If you ever hear someone tell you that they make their best art drunk, they're so full of shit, man, Like I'm telling you there's no way you are productive, more productive hungover, drunk, all the time. I know, trust me, i have orders that are years old that I'm like. I got to do that still because I've been drunk for so long. I promise you it is not true. So I had to shed that belief and start connecting with people. So, anyway, i had no idea what to do with my career.

Jack: 1:12:21

What was the next chapter of my life and creativity and art going to look like? And then, within the span of two weeks, and divine intervention or God, a blessing, miracle, whatever the source of universe, of stars, all of it came into focus at one time. I found a sense of community through recovery, through AA, and I found the importance and value of connection through working with this one single person, so I decided to bring the two together. I have been doing custom poems for nearly a decade. I have so many people that follow me on social media that have just incredible stories yours included that deserve to be heard, who don't have a platform necessarily as big as mine, who maybe don't know exactly how to best put it into words, and thankfully I still, in spite of my own drunken shenanigans, have the capabilities of both. Like I have a following, i have a willingness to take these people's stories and share them with the world.

Jack: 1:13:32

So I started the Kindred Project and it was something I had always wanted to do. I wanted to take 100 people who liked my work, hear their story, but really hear it. I wanted to spend time with them on the phone, on a Zoom meeting, like I had done with this gentleman, and just listen and connect with them and hear their story. And I had been wanting to do something like this for a long time, but I knew deep down I wouldn't have been able to because of my own addictions. I knew that I would have never given it the attention and respect that it deserved.

Jack: 1:14:21

I would have been, first of all, it's 10.14 in the morning here where I am right now. First of all, i wasn't even getting up to like 3.14 in the afternoon, so like half of my day shot. I feel like shit. I had this just thick, thick layer of fog and confusion mentally all the time because of drugs and alcohol. I had no wit, i had no creativity. It was like my synapses stopped fire and they probably were And all at once I had these great ideas and people.

Jack: 1:14:56

So now that I'm sober and I'm living a life you know, more righteous, i guess, and I decided to roll out this project, thinking like maybe I'll get it, hopefully I'll get 75 to 100 people who may be a show interest. Dude, we had 100 people, yourself included, signed up within 10 days or something like that. And that wasn't of my making. It was my idea. But the fact that I'm even able to do it and thought of the idea and have the capacity to do it is not an accident. So now I'm about halfway through it. We just did your interview and it's been more than I imagine. It's.

Jack: 1:15:48

Everybody's story is so powerful, so significant. Like people I know from experience because of my own writing, you connected with that poem that I wrote, But I didn't write it for you, right, but you related to it And you know what's ironic is that particular poem went viral. It's probably the only thing I've ever written that went viral by definition, right, and it did because a woman, sheltered, posted it And I think it's. I forget the name of it and that's disappointing. I'm disappointed in myself that I can't remember. It's been like eight, nine years ago, but they shared it and they had a huge following on Facebook, or have a huge following on Facebook. They shared it and they got shared and shared and shared and shared and shared. But then you use it, i think, even in your what was it? your college thesis, or something like that.

Leah: 1:16:49

Yeah, i used it in my yeah and a bunch of speeches I've given, as I always refer back to that one.

Jack: 1:16:53

And it was originally shared with a shelter, a women's organization that took in women and children from abusive relationships. Wow, So it all kind of comes full circle. But anyway, my point is, the drama is in the details. We all have these, these occurrences in life that are so unique that could have only happened to you, and you're perfectly positioned to use these hardships for good. But when you, when you share that story is unique in detail as your story was, is it's thousands of people will relate to it because they offer they also have suffered from something similar. So, though it is very unique and you know a one in a million billion scenario for you, it's still a connecting point for so many others, And that's what I hope that this project will do, And I can already know what it is.

Jack: 1:17:59

I've done half of the interviews I've written about. I've written a couple dozen of the pieces already for the book. All 100 interview people that I've interviewed, all of the poems that they, that I write from their stories based on what they share with me, will go into this book, along with some of my own writings through recovery. And now this from this, this one idea, We flip the scenario on its head. All those, all those things that have happened to you that could have just been oppressive and weighed you down, Now we flip it on its head. You have a podcast about it And now it's in a book, and that book can reach untold numbers of people and and serve as inspiration, just like me making it through my addiction And the other 99 stories that are all going to be relatable to, to people you know, all around the world.

Jack: 1:18:55

Literally. We have people from Australia involved in the project, Tel Aviv, London, all throughout the United States, Canada, Mexico, Philippines, like just everywhere. So this one, one book, one story, one person that has the you know, the capability of reaching and connecting with untold numbers of people. It's really, really cool.

Leah: 1:19:19

It is the coolest concept to me, I think, which I that's kind of why I switched the podcast to doing interviews like this and to talking to people about what they about what they have going on, Because, even though there's going to be people listening to this, obviously, who have never dealt with drug and alcohol addiction, but they're going to be able to connect with it, They're going to be able to connect with what you're saying, And that's really what it's all about. I think that the the the most. The thing that you said the most that really stuck with me was way back at the beginning, when we first started talking, and it's something that I feel so passionately about, so it's probably why it stuck out to me. But what we're talking about here is good people that have had shitty things happen, right, And when you separate the behavior from the human, you realize because I grew up thinking similar to the way you did these people who smoke and drink, they're bad people. They're bad people and they don't have anything good to offer.

Leah: 1:20:19

And so by offering this, this, just this, sit down and listening and being present and disassociating what is going on right now with the actual human attached to the behavior, we're not talking about bad people. We're talking about people good people in bad situations, good people in sad situations and the truth of it all is that everybody has to deal with life in a really difficult way at some point, and the way we deal with it is that's it. Some of us gamble, some of us overeat, some of us under eat, some of us it doesn't matter what your drug of choice is. I promise you, you have one, you have one.

Jack: 1:20:59

There's all sorts of coping mechanisms out there and like listen, i know people who are so addicted to the gym that their body is in all sorts of disarray. So it's like look, whatever the thing is, if it is taking control of your life. I used to have a big problem. They call it in a, they call it sloth right, like we. Just, you know, i understood that I wasn't a procrastinator, but I had a habit of procrastinating. That was my bad habit and it wasn't because of the task itself, the task itself. I knew if I completed it you'd have a positive impact on my psyche and just by the simple act of completing the task, writing that that poem would have a positive impact on someone. But why would I? why would I not want to do it? Why wasn't I so excited about doing it? Because we I put this self-imposed stress and pressure. It's work. What if it doesn't turn out right? Well, all these things start to stack against it. To where? putting it off is the obvious, is the obvious decision? Of course I don't want to do it. What if it doesn't all these things right? So like? that was something that had become a bad habit that I had to unlearn and I fight with it every day when I feel it, i have to lean into it. So when I feel like I also quit smoking, i figured shit if I, if I can quit abusing drugs and alcohol, well, can't I stop smoking too? I know it's not good for me, i know it's having a negative impact on my life. Why can't I stop it? Okay, i don't have the answers. Who does? now I start to find those answers? Now, when I have the desire to smoke a cigarette, i have to do something else. And that's it, man. It's just identifying these things, understanding that, like you said, we had. All of us go through this shit. We all have these things that aren't serving us, that are having negative impacts on our lives. What can I do to live a more like, to get rid of that and now live a more fulfilled life, a more prosperous, abundant life, one that has more joy, peace, happiness, love, better relationships, better health? We look, just pick a couple of whichever ones are really fucking your life up. Let's start there.

Jack: 1:23:16

I remember I would tell, i told my sponsor I was like yo, i'm drinking like 9,000 cups of coffee a day now, yeah, yeah. And I was like I think this is becoming a problem. And he says to me he's like all right. Well, jack, let me ask you this Have you ever like punched a bunch of holes in the wall because you had too much coffee? I'm like what? No, no. He's like, have you ever had to get bailed out a couple of times because you like spit at a police officer because you had too much coffee? And I'm like no, and he's like all right. Well then, let's, we'll worry about that later. Then Let's just stick with the alcohol. Let's just deal with the drugs and alcohol for now. And I was like all right. So like, whatever, whatever your thing is, that's fucking shit up. Let's start there.

Leah: 1:24:03

I adore you. I just think the world of you, i just think you're one of the good people And I love that. I love the project you're working on, i love all of the words that you share and you put out into the world. But I love that you're taking this time to listen to other people, because the healing there is twofold. Right, it's one of them to be heard, and it's healing for you to be part of that moment with them and to be trusted with that moment in their life.

Leah: 1:24:34

I think that and I've said it probably on every interview I've done I just don't think that there are, there can be, enough spaces right now where we're talking about the real shit. I just, the more that we talk about it, the freer we feel and there's power in numbers and we grow from that and we shine brighter when we come together. And that's what you're doing, that's what the world gets now, because you are putting that out there, jack. You're doing it, you're the one connecting all of us the 100, and we get to be heard because of you, and I don't know how you adequately thank somebody for something like that. So it's such a cool thing to know you.

Jack: 1:25:20

I'm honored to be, to have the opportunity to write your everyone's stories. I'm honored to be able to. It's such a blessing, awesome responsibility for me to be able to hear these stories and share them with the world. I don't take that lightly. It demanded my sobriety. It demanded a full, open heart for me to do it because, though, my story is so important to me, your story is so important to you and the next person's story is so important to them, so I have to care as much about yours as I do mine. And that has been the coolest thing is stepping outside of myself. Hearing yours. You inspire me, and knowing that I get to take that story and knowing for sure that it'll inspire others is just man. I wake up every day and even if sometimes I don't feel like being excited right away, i'm like how fucking dare you? You better get going, man. Your morning walks on.

Leah: 1:26:33

Instagram are so much fun. Your morning walks are so much fun on your stories on Instagram, So I will link all of your socials and everything but your morning walks are fun They are a fun time.

Jack: 1:26:45

Thank you for doing this and for having the you know being brave enough to go out there and share your story. I know you probably hear it from everybody in your life, but I'll remind you too, and just you know, i'm also happy to know you and I'm so glad that we connected.

Leah: 1:26:59

You're the best. Thank you for being here. Thank you for everything that you do. I appreciate it.

Jack: 1:27:04

Thank you, you rock.

Leah: 1:27:10

You guys, the Kindred Project is out now on Amazon. So go to Amazon, search for the Kindred Project by Jay Raymond and you can buy a copy there. Or you can go to Jack's website and you can get a signed copy from him. I'll be sure to link his website in the show notes. Jack, thank you so much for for spending time with me, for being such an inspiration to me, and this was an awesome, awesome, awesome conversation, and I'm so glad that we can share it with my friends, with my listeners here. You guys, i'm been up to so much and I am so excited to share it with you.

Leah: 1:27:48

In addition to these conversations on the podcast, which I'm loving, i am making blankets. I'm making the softest, most beautiful, most coziest, snuggliest blankets that you ever did see, and I am selling them on my social media once a month through Blanket Drops. If you want more information on those, you have to follow me on social media. Instagram is the best act, leah ideology, so follow me there, learn about the Blanket Drops. You want one of these blankets. Trust me, i'm not even kidding.

Leah: 1:28:21

The second thing I'm working on is I'm making jewelry. You guys, like I'm a jewelry maker, i'm basically like an artisan. So I want that, like Leah Wagner artisan. It just sounds pretty. I think I'm making jewelry for wild roots creative And again, if you're following me on Instagram, i share a lot of the pieces that I'm working on and a lot of the pieces that she makes, and I'm really proud of it. It's work that I didn't think that I would love as much as I do. It's really cute stuff, it's very affordable stuff and it's super, super beautiful. So go check it out. I'll be sure to link their website in my show notes too. So lots of good things are coming to the Leah Ideology brand and I'm excited to share it with you. I'm proud of it And I'm glad that you were here with me this week to listen to my conversation with Jack. Be sure you're following me on social media and I can't wait to hang out with you guys here again next time.